Braid and the Palomar Paradox -
Uni vs Palomar vs Offshore Swivel vs Berkley Braid
This is a posting I made on Reddit in October 2021. The results should interest anyone who wants to get the best out of their knots when using fine braid. I did subsequently try to improve on my Palomar Knot results by trying variant knots with a Palomar theme, but was unsuccessful.
As you will see, the Palomar Knot is not alone in dropping its performance level when faced with a mismatch in tackle use. I have explored some of the options that an angler might wish to resort to when wishing to reinstate the lost performance.
The results obtained in the main table below can only be a general guide at best and are no substitute for testing. You should note that I chose a typical rounded swivel with which to conduct these tests.
Noteworthy, too, is that using a size 16 diamond-shaped swivel eye definitely confirms the superiority of one of the knots tested while downgrading the performance of the others.
Despite the width of the fine braid matching the diamond-shaped swivel eye, the narrowness of the point of contact seemed to have a generally adverse effect on what had been successful variants. Curiously, a standard Palomar outperformed a full-house Palomar variant under these conditions.
Disappointing and unexpected as these findings were, with only two knots advancing beyond 8 lbs b/s on the diamond-shaped swivel eye, they nevertheless confirm a long-held opinion of mine when it comes to using fine braid:
Under unfavourable conditions, a doubled-line knot with an additional wrap around its attachment is easier to tune than a single line variant.
Thus, using either the doubled-line Fish N Fool Knot with 8 turns and double and single reversed half hitches behind the knot, or a 30-twist Tuna Knot with an additional wrap, 3 tucks and 30 reversed half hitches behind the knot, I was able to achieve my target of 10 lbs b/s when I tested my loop knot against each of these knots to complete my intended rig:
Hi Guys,
In my previous posting, I was writing about the trap that the unwary can fall into when using a braided line much thinner than the hook or swivel it is attached to. I used the Palomar Knot to make the point because its purity of construction means that some of the variables present with other knot patterns are excluded.
One of my respondents asked if I wouldn't mind doing a comparison between the (Fish N Fool) Uni Knot and the Palomar Knot because they had heard that the Uni was stronger. We've all seen the videos on YouTube. Knot Wars is a favourite of mine (don't know if they are still doing it). Most standard patterns of connection knot such as the Uni allow for a variable number of turns. By contrast, the configuration of the standard Palomar is fixed. In any head-to-head, using the same equipment, the Palomar will perform to its capability, but the results of the Uni will be variable depending on how many turns you give it.
By deliberately mismatching the braided line to its attachment, you can get a better sense of the latent capabilities of each knot, and what is needed to 'up their game'. Opening up the test to some other popular patterns gives more data for comparison, and helps to identify how much or how little you have to tune them to make the grade. As you see, they can all 'make the grade', so you will also be considering other aspects such as ease of tying, core strength, consistency etc. If this sounds overly complicated, I will give my opinion on each knot later.
For the moment, let me give you a much simpler summary - Small Block V8 vs Big Block V8. Small Block needs plentiful fettling to deliver; Big Block (no substitute for the cubes) needs nothing doing to it. The power is more easily accessible, and should that be insufficient, a little fettling will bring plenty more ... I think there is one stand-out knot from my selection that is already equipped with the knot equivalent of a Big Block V8 and another one that just needs a tweak in the number of its turns to fall into this category ...
Before I give you my verdict, I think a few prefatory remarks are in order so that you can replicate my testing if you wish.
- I said I was only going to test each knot x3 times. In fact, it was many more times than that. Sometimes I couldn't get a clear read on the intermediate decimal values because my arm was shaking too much (I lacked the arm of my comfortable armchair to 'steady the ship')
- Any extended period of knot-testing usually turns up a 'freak-knot' result that you can't explain and can't replicate. It doesn't happen often but will skew the results if not representative. Similarly, I have gone for a re-tie where I felt I tied a poor example
- Line - the line I am using for these tests is Matrix 10.9 (when new, it will test to a little over 11 lbs). It starts off slick enough and just gets slicker with use. The other brand was thinner and subjectively a little slicker out of the box:
- Scales - note the judicious use of the rubber band (or kiss goodbye to your snap swivel sooner or later):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ikW21WkMa6SdKVjklwfM-EyxYLyc9yx9/view?usp=sharing
- Snap Swivel - The line diameter is 0.08mm. The swivel itself is 3 mm wide at the eye and 12mm long on just the swivel (sorry, don't know its size but reckon it to be an 8 or 10). You can't tell much from the photo but a 15 lb braided line is approximately the same thickness whereas the 11 lb line I am using is visibly thinner to the naked eye:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dt0-UkjMUip8ANvxPwOqB2VDn_SyQABS/view?usp=sharing
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| Breaking Strain Percentages |
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| Test Results |
Analysis
This is a sub for Beginners. It's been a long time since I was a beginner starting out, but when it comes to the world of fine braid, I still feel like a beginner! I try to put myself into a beginner's shoes. If I am transitioning to braid or starting out with braid, what would I want to know?
After being counselled to use braid-friendly knots because of the slickness of the material, I would feel that that was all I needed to know - I did. Later, when I trained myself to use my scales at every opportunity where fine braid was in use, I observed that tying fine braid to swivels could be an issue and that I needed to check whatever knot I was using and 'fettle' it as necessary. Only now can I see a cause and effect. It's not something you see discussed. Most seasoned anglers match line to attachment so there is not really a problem to be solved. As a beginner, you don't know this. You tie a Palomar as advised. If you are lucky, you make the correct match-up and the knot holds firm. If not, the first decent fish that comes along is lost. As a beginner, you just chalk it up to your inexperience.
An old proverb covers it better than any words of mine: 'Forewarned is to be Forearmed'.
- A bad or underperforming knot on a heavier line will probably not be as detrimental to the end result as it could be on a light line - simply because you have more margin for error. My top-weight hook length is 8 lbs b/s. Whatever knots I use on my 11 lbs line are tested to ensure that they can get to 10 lbs which will give me more of a cushion than 9 lbs and guarantees the hook length breaking first
- All the knots tested reach my benchmark 90% - some with less effort than others
- Why no Trilene Knot? I guess an oversight. It's actually recommended by the manufacturer of the braid I use. I don't like making assumptions because testing should be the true arbiter. Being a single-line construct, I wouldn't expect much better results than a Fish N Fool Knot with a Uni or San Diego Jam Knot added. Based on previous testing, I think with a similar-sized swivel years back, I can recall hitting the 10 lbs bench mark with something like x30 turns. It's a safe bet to say that with an extra wrap or two thrown in, the number of turns could be reduced to half that amount and still hit the 10 lbs mark
- Palomar - in standard configuration, it is the weakest of all the knots tested here. Yes, in the guise of a 'throw-the-kitchen-sink-at-it' Nanofil, it gets there. The line has to be suitably lubricated and a long tag allowed for so that you can grip it and exert the necessary force needed for cinching. It is the least tuneable of all the knots and proved really difficult to take over the 10 lbs finishing line. Yet when used with a balanced setup, it performs strongly and is not in the least bit unpleasant to tie. A true Jekyll and Hyde of a knot
- Fish N Fool Uni - even under these adverse conditions, a 'standard' Fish N Fool Knot with x14 turns is managing approximately 75% of the line's strength to the standard Palomar's 64%. Note the small increase in performance by adding x30 reversed half hitches (x30 may be 'overkill' but I think you need at least x20 to make a difference). This is a fine-tuning step when compared to the more advantageous step of adding additional wraps around the swivel eye as shown with the Fish N Fool +3 wraps. In the same way that a Fish N Fool Knot provides more grip with braid than a regular Uni Knot because of its one extra wrap, so adding three extra wraps to make four wraps total makes for a superior Fish N Fool Knot - you are equipping it with the extra grip found when any double-line knot like a Berkley Braid Knot or Tuna Knot goes from having two strands around the attachment to four. As far as the Doubled Line Fish N Fool goes, let me just say that Phil became Pip with his 'Great Expectations'! It's not a variant I had tied before though knowing how robust a Doubled Line Uni Knot could be, I was keen to see the results. They did not disappoint. Clearly this is a Big Block knot in all but name! I kept to the x7 doubled line turns to match the x14 turns of the single line variant. I imagine that an increase from x7 to x10-x12 should guarantee the full 90%+ each and every time without too much effort at all
- Offshore Swivel Knot: https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/offshore-swivel-knot - a consistent performer at the 80%+ level. Until you have tied it a few times with fine braid, it can seem fiddly. The trick is to start with each of the twisted strands facing opposite each other across the eye of the swivel and keep good control of the swivel as you make the turns. Cinching is relatively easy up to and including x12 turns. Above this and it needs a lot of massaging. A surprise entry because it had performed well in previous testing and I wanted to see what it could do. I think you would need practice and more half-hitches to consistently hit the 'heady heights' of 90%. Whilst it might be unknown to some of you, just remember that it 'hits the ground running' unlike some better-known patterns
- Berkley Braid Knot (modified) - I have saved the best until last. You don't see many values listed because it doesn't need them. It's that good! This is the second time I have tied this variant. Both times it pulled straight to the bench mark 90% plus. It's as good as my modified Tuna Knot without need of additional tuning. It tends to fly under the radar in the company of other knots. But it's a genuine Big Block V8 of a knot. Takes a little practice to master - just like the real thing, in fact - but once you get the hang of it, the results are awesomely consistent!
Tuning
I was intending to write a few words on this subject, but then I thought that to do so might detract from the central tenet. Which is? Try to match the thickness of your braided line to your attachment. If you do this, all the braid-friendly knot patterns we recommend should work well in standard form. Stray from this path, and the performance of your chosen knot could be a little or a lot below what you are expecting - particularly when you are using a fine line. After all, you would think twice about driving your road car in terrain more suited to an off-road vehicle.
Taking the above analogy, a step further, you would happily drive your off-roader on the public highway confident that should you meet something unexpected like mud or snow, you would have the vehicle to cope with it. So, it is with knots. Start off with a knot that is more capable than it needs to be for most situations, and should you make a misjudgement about the appropriateness of the line you are using, the extra performance might get you out of trouble.
If in doubt, reach for the scales. Hooks and snaps are easy enough to test. If a large mismatch is in the offing because you want to tie directly to the eye of your lure, but must keep the line thin, you might consider using a high-performance braid loop instead. It should offer you a good level of performance without the need to test. A high-performance terminal knot, no matter how good, will eventually run out of grip if the mismatch is too great. A high-performance loop knot is limited only by your ability to tie it and the strength of your line. Whether there is a tackle mismatch or not will be an irrelevance because the integrity of a loop knot is dependent on your ability to tie it and nothing else.
Hope this was useful.
Phil
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